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If a player wants to play MMO PvP, they have to choose a PvP server. If a player wants to play CTF PvP, they can choose either type of server. Players on both types of server are playing the CTF PvP.

You're trying to analyze the quality of the PvP, and I'm not. You're attempting to apply value judgements, I'm wholly trying to avoid them.

The really key thing is that while Blizzard managed to sell MMO PvP to those who chose the PvP servers, but players on the PvE servers - who said no to PvP - actually play the CTF PvP in surprisingly large numbers.

What's important about it is that it tells us that if you want massive sales of PvP, then you need to be looking at CTF/deathmatch style PvP, not "massively" PvP. Massively PvP goes against what makes real PvP good and great and fun.

The money in this industry currently has million-dollar symbols chinged up in its eyes. And devs are chasing it The point has to be made that WoW sold PvP in massive form to under half its players, they had to back down to CTF/deathmatch style PvP to sell it to the rest.

There are devs out there who want to make PvP games, and they think they can compete with WoW for marketshare. They're wrong.

I respect your opinions on how to make WoW's PvP "better", because if you would enjoy it more, that's "better". But if you think that a significant portion of WoW players would agree with you, you've completely failed to understand why WoW is so "dumbed down" :- Their target audience is not you or I, its "freakin' huge numbers of people". So whatever sells to the target audience is "successful". If you don't get that, hey, I'm sorry for wasting your time.