I went to all the bother of registering for this discussion :)
I think we're actually not in total disagreement, here, and I apologise if I put words in your mouth. Reading back I guess I did. I do fully agree that time investment should be rewarded with gear differentiation. That's never been the issue. The issue is that the game requires this time investment to be of a certain form - raiding, or even worse, the PVP grind. I'd just like a third avenue for people like me who refuse to raid or grind PvP. The faction rewards, you must admit, are small beer. But perhaps like you say the introduction of more five mans will even this out.
I partake in discussions like these because I enjoy the debate, not because I need to vent. I still play WoW, and my whole time playing is certainly not spent in an angry rage. I just enjoy the discussion, and have an interest in MMORPGs not just as a gamer but also from a slightly academic bent. I already have Shadow of the Colossus, by the way. As a gaming experience it's almost diametrically opposed to anything WoW offers, but there are similarities. Do you remember the first time you took a griffon ride in WoW? I felt a similar sense of wonder at this massive, beautiful (if admittedly static) world the developers had created, similiar to what I felt upon galoping round SOTC on my horse.
Just to touch on this point - "It's unrealistic from a lore and gameplay perspective that we can all be happy little players at the same skill and power levels".
I don't believe that's axiomatic, frankly. It's the same as the 1-60 levelling curve. Some players will reach 60 far quicker than others, but sooner or later everyone will. I don't believe that hurts the game. The same could be said of gear/content. Raiding could guarantee a quicker return, but to forever lock out people that don't favour that play style is a mistake. I actually think this whole mess would not be such a problem if Blizzard had been a little quicker out of the blocks with the expansion. It's clear that as development proceeded they began holding back content that would have become irrelevant once the expansion was released. This, coupled with the late arrival of a lot of raid content that was no doubt intended for release, caused the 5/40 man imbalance we see today.
A couple of final points I shall attempt to make without putting words in your mouth! "Raiding contributes to the economy and to the community in ways that have no substitute in PvP"
I'd actually contend that this isn't really true. The raiding community pretty much contributes nothing to how I play the game. I'm largely ignorant of guild progress on my server, I use absolutely nothing, buy nothing that raid players put on the AH. I think the raiding community is more insulated than you imagine. Obviously there is the stuff that Blizzard has hard-coded into the game (gates of AQ opening up field quests, for example), but again that's design-driven behaviour and not a natural outcome of there being a raiding community. There's the economic effects of sought-after items on the AH, but again that's absolutely ancilliary to my game playing experience and could just as easily be replicated if Blizzard suddently decided that a bunch of particular pots were needed for PVP. I exist in almost perfect isolation from raiders, in other words.
"It's a multiplayer game right? Players should be rewarded for not being antisocial".
I think this is an important point. Social behaviour should be rewarded, but antisocial behaviour (not what I'd call it, but I'll get to that) should not be punished, either. Many people have talked about the feeling of "being alone, together" in response to the question "why play an MMORPG when you want to solo?". It's because the feeling of being surrounded by people going about their business brings worth to the experience. I might prefer soloing/small grouping, but I prefer doing it in a world that has real people in it.
Think about this. WoW has 6.5 million or so subscribers. It has literally increased the MMORPG market in the West by a massive margin, 5 or 6 times what it was before. Why is this? Obviously there's lots of good reasons - it's a far more polished affair than anything that came before, for one. But I think the most important is that it is accessible. My girlfriend plays WoW. Her boss plays WoW. My boss plays WoW, as does his wife. None of these people are by any stretch "gamers". This game has excelled because it breaks the model of previous games. Hardcore content is not a mainstream business winner. The more playstyles WoW supports, the better it does.
This has got rather far from the original PvP discussion, hasn't it? :)
Re: Honor system revamp and world PvP
I went to all the bother of registering for this discussion :)
I think we're actually not in total disagreement, here, and I apologise if I put words in your mouth. Reading back I guess I did. I do fully agree that time investment should be rewarded with gear differentiation. That's never been the issue. The issue is that the game requires this time investment to be of a certain form - raiding, or even worse, the PVP grind. I'd just like a third avenue for people like me who refuse to raid or grind PvP. The faction rewards, you must admit, are small beer. But perhaps like you say the introduction of more five mans will even this out.
I partake in discussions like these because I enjoy the debate, not because I need to vent. I still play WoW, and my whole time playing is certainly not spent in an angry rage. I just enjoy the discussion, and have an interest in MMORPGs not just as a gamer but also from a slightly academic bent. I already have Shadow of the Colossus, by the way. As a gaming experience it's almost diametrically opposed to anything WoW offers, but there are similarities. Do you remember the first time you took a griffon ride in WoW? I felt a similar sense of wonder at this massive, beautiful (if admittedly static) world the developers had created, similiar to what I felt upon galoping round SOTC on my horse.
Just to touch on this point - "It's unrealistic from a lore and gameplay perspective that we can all be happy little players at the same skill and power levels".
I don't believe that's axiomatic, frankly. It's the same as the 1-60 levelling curve. Some players will reach 60 far quicker than others, but sooner or later everyone will. I don't believe that hurts the game. The same could be said of gear/content. Raiding could guarantee a quicker return, but to forever lock out people that don't favour that play style is a mistake. I actually think this whole mess would not be such a problem if Blizzard had been a little quicker out of the blocks with the expansion. It's clear that as development proceeded they began holding back content that would have become irrelevant once the expansion was released. This, coupled with the late arrival of a lot of raid content that was no doubt intended for release, caused the 5/40 man imbalance we see today.
A couple of final points I shall attempt to make without putting words in your mouth! "Raiding contributes to the economy and to the community in ways that have no substitute in PvP"
I'd actually contend that this isn't really true. The raiding community pretty much contributes nothing to how I play the game. I'm largely ignorant of guild progress on my server, I use absolutely nothing, buy nothing that raid players put on the AH. I think the raiding community is more insulated than you imagine. Obviously there is the stuff that Blizzard has hard-coded into the game (gates of AQ opening up field quests, for example), but again that's design-driven behaviour and not a natural outcome of there being a raiding community. There's the economic effects of sought-after items on the AH, but again that's absolutely ancilliary to my game playing experience and could just as easily be replicated if Blizzard suddently decided that a bunch of particular pots were needed for PVP. I exist in almost perfect isolation from raiders, in other words.
"It's a multiplayer game right? Players should be rewarded for not being antisocial".
I think this is an important point. Social behaviour should be rewarded, but antisocial behaviour (not what I'd call it, but I'll get to that) should not be punished, either. Many people have talked about the feeling of "being alone, together" in response to the question "why play an MMORPG when you want to solo?". It's because the feeling of being surrounded by people going about their business brings worth to the experience. I might prefer soloing/small grouping, but I prefer doing it in a world that has real people in it.
Think about this. WoW has 6.5 million or so subscribers. It has literally increased the MMORPG market in the West by a massive margin, 5 or 6 times what it was before. Why is this? Obviously there's lots of good reasons - it's a far more polished affair than anything that came before, for one. But I think the most important is that it is accessible. My girlfriend plays WoW. Her boss plays WoW. My boss plays WoW, as does his wife. None of these people are by any stretch "gamers". This game has excelled because it breaks the model of previous games. Hardcore content is not a mainstream business winner. The more playstyles WoW supports, the better it does.
This has got rather far from the original PvP discussion, hasn't it? :)