AlteredOne:
Clearly you would like to see some major revolutionary changes to DAOC, with idea like abolishing Task Dungeons.
Excuse me, but moving the taskmaster from the task dungeon to the aurulite doungeons isn't "major", nor "revolutionary". Just intelligent. "Take this here and move it where it is more appropriate and fun."
And it's EXACTLY because I cannot propose anything a bit more daring that I try to hand out suggestions that are doable. This "small" change wouldn't shift the PvE from "dull", to "interesting". But it would move the game more toward a positive path that valorizes what's already in the game.
Lum:
So it's not that we wouldn't remove task dungeons because we don't have anyone working on Camelot, we wouldn't because it's an insanely drastic change to the game at this point and wouldn't achieve what is being asked for, anyway.
You know already my opinion. If even this is a too drastic change, DAoC will never go anywhere. Moving a taskmaster to equilibrate and streamline the PvE is really a minimal step to what DAoC would need. Of course it wouldn't be enough to fix all and every problem but this is how you start to move. Not to stop but to continue.
Lum:
There's nothing preventing people solely from levelling up solo in Catacombs instances that drop aurulite.
Yes, it's just, I don't know, seven times slower? Both in solo and in a group, mind you.
Lum:
However, they're not balanced for solo players and often have monster layout that would be hot death to a class without, say, crowd control. But they're fine for what they are - group challenges.
As I wrote above I'm not questioning the "target" of this PvE pattern. I'm questioning the *reward*. The exp in the aurulite dungeons sucks. Even if, as you say, this would be optimal for group challenges. But in my experience 99% of the groups don't go in the aurulite instances as the design would imply. They go in the Task Dungeons. In your theory these TDs are supposed to be there for solo players instead.
So there's something broken already there. Or not?
Lum:
If we changed those to be solo-friendly, they wouldn't be a challenge for a group (and HRose would complain about "static mobs that just sit there waiting for you to kill them" - in other words, no wanderers or scout mobs that might present aggro control issues).
And here you twist what I proposed. I didn't propose to take the aurulite dungeons and replace their content with the task dungeons. I just proposed to move the frigging taskmaster. The Aurulite dungeons wouldn't change at all.
As you should understand, this is logical. The Aurulite would provide everything they provide now: the aurulite dropping and optimal group challenges. By adding the taskmaster and completing those missions they would also finally offer good exp.
So not only good experience points. But it would also move the "optimal group challenges" to where they belong (and are more fun) instead of the awfully boring (and now even nerfed) TDs. Basically I wouldn't do anything else than what has been quoted:
"The best route should also be the most fun route."
The best route is about those Aurulite dungeons that are, in fact, tailored for groups. That offer something slightly more interesting than mobs standing still and that would also finally become "the best route".
Why wouldn't this make sense?
Lum:
Task dungeons present one thing and one thing only - a short, hour-long or so play session that allows a solo player to advance their character when nothing else is available.
Is this their design? Because if this is their design, it's broken. I dread to go in a TD in solo. That's way too slow and dull to be able to tolearate. But the TDs have been where I levelled for most of my character life. And the same for most of the players. Just not solo but in a group.
The TDs aren't used just by players soloing, they are used by the groups and simply because they are the most efficient way to farm exp and money.
The TDs offer just one simple pattern: you complete the task and get a dump of money and a bubble of exp (back then). From the point of view of the content they offer NOTHING. This is why the TDs should be removed, because the content is already null. What we would retain, instead, is their function (money+exp) that would be carried over to the aurulite dungeons where the money+exp would be aintegrated with items. Bingo.
This is what would be optimal content for a group and without going down to propose something actually radical like changing the combat mechanics or the classes. This is why I wrote that my idea valorizes the content. The content that is already there and wouldn't require brand new development time.
This would also encourage the players to... group. Since the aurulite dungeons would become even more appealing and, as you wrote, tailored as "optimal group challenges".
What we would lose (and need to reintegrate) is the original purpose of the TDs: "a short play session that allows a solo player to advance their character when nothing else is available". Since the Aurulite dungeons wouldn't be anymore appropriate for this, being "group" content (but this is even questionable considering I actually soloed way more time the aurulite than the TDs).
About this problem you already say that there are patterns available:
Lum:
There's plenty of other things for a solo player to do.
Which would finally bring to another point that I didn't want to bring up, but that was the direct consequence of what I wrote above (because, as I said, this is the START of a long process, not just a change to fire and forget):
- The solo quest missions should be really tweaked in a viable solo experience. Right now they hand out medium money and medium exp, they should be instead organized in "chapters" where at the end of each you are able to also have access to all the items you need for your character. So, basically, the idea would be to integrate the medium exp and money also with usable items. (and following this idea to integrate the rewards instead of splitting them without a logical reason)
Right now what I see in the game is a broken pattern: players solo the Aurulite and group in TDs. My ideas, among the goals I listed above, are aimed to encourage the players to group in the Aurulite dungeons and solo the task quests.
From a "technical" point of view the *content* wouldn't need any work:
- The TDs would just be removed. The art assets in there wouldn't be lost since they are just reused and mixed from other parts of the game.
- The taskmasters and their tasks would be moved at the door of the Aurulite dungeons (and the mechanics adapted so that they aim at the mobs and boss monster within each, shouldn't be a biggie)
- The solo task missions should be integrated with good items along the path and maybe buffed up even in money and exp reward in the case the solo players rant about the removal of TDs.
If this is "an insanely drastic change", well, it would be better to just give up altogether.
Re: Another spin to the wheel
Adding the follow up in the discussion:
--
Excuse me, but moving the taskmaster from the task dungeon to the aurulite doungeons isn't "major", nor "revolutionary". Just intelligent. "Take this here and move it where it is more appropriate and fun."
And it's EXACTLY because I cannot propose anything a bit more daring that I try to hand out suggestions that are doable. This "small" change wouldn't shift the PvE from "dull", to "interesting". But it would move the game more toward a positive path that valorizes what's already in the game.
You know already my opinion. If even this is a too drastic change, DAoC will never go anywhere. Moving a taskmaster to equilibrate and streamline the PvE is really a minimal step to what DAoC would need. Of course it wouldn't be enough to fix all and every problem but this is how you start to move. Not to stop but to continue.
Yes, it's just, I don't know, seven times slower? Both in solo and in a group, mind you.
As I wrote above I'm not questioning the "target" of this PvE pattern. I'm questioning the *reward*. The exp in the aurulite dungeons sucks. Even if, as you say, this would be optimal for group challenges. But in my experience 99% of the groups don't go in the aurulite instances as the design would imply. They go in the Task Dungeons. In your theory these TDs are supposed to be there for solo players instead.
So there's something broken already there. Or not?
And here you twist what I proposed. I didn't propose to take the aurulite dungeons and replace their content with the task dungeons. I just proposed to move the frigging taskmaster. The Aurulite dungeons wouldn't change at all.
As you should understand, this is logical. The Aurulite would provide everything they provide now: the aurulite dropping and optimal group challenges. By adding the taskmaster and completing those missions they would also finally offer good exp.
So not only good experience points. But it would also move the "optimal group challenges" to where they belong (and are more fun) instead of the awfully boring (and now even nerfed) TDs. Basically I wouldn't do anything else than what has been quoted:
"The best route should also be the most fun route."
The best route is about those Aurulite dungeons that are, in fact, tailored for groups. That offer something slightly more interesting than mobs standing still and that would also finally become "the best route".
Why wouldn't this make sense?
Is this their design? Because if this is their design, it's broken. I dread to go in a TD in solo. That's way too slow and dull to be able to tolearate. But the TDs have been where I levelled for most of my character life. And the same for most of the players. Just not solo but in a group.
The TDs aren't used just by players soloing, they are used by the groups and simply because they are the most efficient way to farm exp and money.
The TDs offer just one simple pattern: you complete the task and get a dump of money and a bubble of exp (back then). From the point of view of the content they offer NOTHING. This is why the TDs should be removed, because the content is already null. What we would retain, instead, is their function (money+exp) that would be carried over to the aurulite dungeons where the money+exp would be aintegrated with items. Bingo.
This is what would be optimal content for a group and without going down to propose something actually radical like changing the combat mechanics or the classes. This is why I wrote that my idea valorizes the content. The content that is already there and wouldn't require brand new development time.
This would also encourage the players to... group. Since the aurulite dungeons would become even more appealing and, as you wrote, tailored as "optimal group challenges".
What we would lose (and need to reintegrate) is the original purpose of the TDs: "a short play session that allows a solo player to advance their character when nothing else is available". Since the Aurulite dungeons wouldn't be anymore appropriate for this, being "group" content (but this is even questionable considering I actually soloed way more time the aurulite than the TDs).
About this problem you already say that there are patterns available:
Which would finally bring to another point that I didn't want to bring up, but that was the direct consequence of what I wrote above (because, as I said, this is the START of a long process, not just a change to fire and forget):
- The solo quest missions should be really tweaked in a viable solo experience. Right now they hand out medium money and medium exp, they should be instead organized in "chapters" where at the end of each you are able to also have access to all the items you need for your character. So, basically, the idea would be to integrate the medium exp and money also with usable items. (and following this idea to integrate the rewards instead of splitting them without a logical reason)
Right now what I see in the game is a broken pattern: players solo the Aurulite and group in TDs. My ideas, among the goals I listed above, are aimed to encourage the players to group in the Aurulite dungeons and solo the task quests.
From a "technical" point of view the *content* wouldn't need any work:
- The TDs would just be removed. The art assets in there wouldn't be lost since they are just reused and mixed from other parts of the game.
- The taskmasters and their tasks would be moved at the door of the Aurulite dungeons (and the mechanics adapted so that they aim at the mobs and boss monster within each, shouldn't be a biggie)
- The solo task missions should be integrated with good items along the path and maybe buffed up even in money and exp reward in the case the solo players rant about the removal of TDs.
If this is "an insanely drastic change", well, it would be better to just give up altogether.