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Aren't "walls" required so that the players can find themselves in the same shit?

Submitted by Abalieno on February 21, 2006 - 10:11.

I got swamped in a silly problem that seems unsolvable. I swear that I'll figure it out, but right now I'm helpless like a total noob.

EDIT: There's a discussion on F13.

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This is something I was thinking lately, it's a very simple problem but it may be more serious than how it appears.

Till now the repetition of endgame raid instances (but also the repetition in general) has been a strategy to keep a balance between the time needed to produce content and the time the players need to go through it. Since the players go a hell of a lot faster we have the grind as a workaround that allows the devs to "buy time". So the very low drop rates and faction farming.

But let's imagine a scenario where this problem doesn't exist and where the dev teams have become so competent and efficient to be able to push out content at an incredible pace, faster than how the players go through it. The production of content wouldn't be anymore a problem and there wouldn't be anymore the need to artificially "stretch" the gameplay by adding timesinks. You would be able to get your fat loot in a couple of runs, obtaining all there is to obtain without no need for boring repetition.

But wouldn't this just break the game?

The problem is that the biggest is the repetition, the more the players will be unite, since they need to do stuff together: the same stuff. If there's an "infinite" amount of content everyone would be spread on multiple levels, without being able to find "other players" who share the same situation.

How would you be able to build even a small raid group if it would be really hard to find players who share the same goals? If instead of 4-5 instances there are 30 and if you are "done" with them after the first run, how you create a "pool" of players sharing the same goals, and so being able (willingly) to group together and have fun?

If I reduce by 50% the drop rates in a set dungeon like UBRS, I also obtain the players to create 50% more occasions to find themselves together. Again sharing the same situation.

If instead I increase the drop rates by 50%, those players will go 50% less times in that dungeon since they don't need it anymore, making 50% harder to find players available to go there in a casual, improvised raid.

Is there an exit point from this? Putting completely aside the problem of the production of content, how you can create a social PvE game without also the implied grind that unifies the players? Aren't these "walls" required so that the players can find themselves in the same shit?

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Re: Aren't "walls" required so that the players can find themsle

L (not verified) on February 21, 2006 - 17:22.

My best guess (to your final paragraph) would be to put less focus on combat, as that is the *one* system that nearly every (mass market) MMO is based on. More content is great to extend the life of a game, but if there is nothing to mix it up then you will invariably get burned out--even if the dungeons are new. A new dungeon doesn't necessarily equal a new gameplay experience (as you obviously know).

I think I've seen you come to the same conclusion before, but my two preferred methods to "solving" the PvE grind would be: 1) change old content instead of adding new content and 2) put more thought into the non-combat aspects of your game.

The reason for 1) would be to: avoid reducing player collision, give players a sense of a real, changing world, give players the ability to take part in how that world changes, and to give designers the opportunity to revisit areas that they have moved past to learn from their mistakes and get better at refining.
And for 2) the reason would be to: provide multiple, unassociated ways for players to experience the game world, and make those experiences engrossing and meaningful instead of an afterthought. What I mean by this is: don't wrap a tradeskill shell around some PvE monster loot. Instead work to make the tradeskill itself something that might be interesting like combat is (really, *why* should smithing be treated exactly the same as fletching?). I really have no idea how this would best be accomplished. I haven't thought about it yet, but some day I will.

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