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What PvP means in WoW

Submitted by Abalieno on May 6, 2006 - 03:09.

Ubiq posted something that I thought I posted myself. It was kind of a deja-vu.

Actually I cannot remember if I really posted it or just wrote in my "notes" file to write about later on, but I clearly remember to have counted all the PvP and PvE servers a while ago and I still have the numbers I noted down:
55 normal servers
73 PvP

I'm bringing this up now because I've seen wrong conclusions being drawn about these numbers, so here are my precisations that I also wrote in the comments over there.

The first wrong assumption is this one:
The most successful PvP in WoW isn’t “MMO PvP” - it’s counterstrike style PvP.

This is false and those number demonstrate the exact opposite. The "counterstrike style PvP" is what we have in the form of "BattleGrounds" and these are available on ALL servers. There's no distinction between PvP and PvE servers here. No reason to pick one instead of the other.

But still, what those numbers show is that the players are split in half. If one half of these players has chosen the PvP servers IS NOT because they want to play in the BGs, because these BGs are available on all servers. Makes sense?

So what is the distinctive trait between PvE and PvP servers? The world PvP. Half of the players have chosen a PvP server because of the "world PvP".

Those players are there despite that kind of unique PvP offered in the PvP servers is almost non existent and was completely neglected by Blizzard.

Those aren’t just players who want PvP. Those are players that are there for a form of PvP that Blizzard doesn’t even support.

I don't think this is a negligible detail. The very significant conclusion is that the players are asking for a type of PvP that Blizzard is NOT SUPPORTING.

And don't fucking tell me that EVEN in the PvP servers the "world PvP" is almost dead and everyone just plays in the BGs. OF COURSE, but this happens because of the lack of support to a WORTHWHILE ALTERNATIVE. The players can only follow the best route available and this depends on what is offered. This doesn't mean that there wasn't a DEMAND for other forms of PvP. A demand that Blizzard ignored till today.

It's like a seed. Players arrive with expectations, then they have to adapt. In this case Blizzard just didn't take advantage of the expectations of those players.

Now the other wrong premise (in the sequel):
The PvP servers are emptier than PvE servers.

This is also false. I don't have exact numbers but I'm sure that the number of active players between PvP and PvE are near. The proof of this is that Blizzard not only launched an equal number of PvP and PvE servers when the game was released, but continued to do so since then. It's obvious that there was a demand since the number and type of new servers is determined by population requirements.

On the other side it is true that a good number of PvP servers have a very low population. But even here there's a reason.

This is a trend I observed since the very beginning and that can be generalized to other games:
- In the PvE case the players tend to move on the servers with less population, where they have less competition (divergence)
- In the PvP case the players tend to amass on fewer servers, looking for good-sized communities (convergence)

The result of this is that the PvE server have usually a better distributed population, while the PvP servers have sharp highs and lows, with servers overcrowded and servers that are basically empty. The players tend to converge instead of diverge as in the PvE servers. Such is the nature of PvP, without other player you can just stare a wall. So the players look for playable and popular environments. Instead in a PvE server, beyond your guild, everyone else is insignificant if not an annoyance. This is why it's much simpler to ask a raiding guild to move on a "clean" server, they actually desire it. While it's much harder to make a consolidated PvP guild to move on a underpopulated server. It would be a sacrifice.

Yes, the players joined and still join the PvP servers with set expectations. I'm one of them. These expectations may be deluded but they are still part of an original motivation. The form of mixed PvP and PvE in WoW is still what drives the players to the PvP servers because it can be extremely fun. It adds a variation to a kind of gameplay that instead would be monotonous and dull at times. It enhances the social fabric and interactions, it makes the zones become alive. It makes the game feel more like a "world" where the players have some significance instead of ignoring each other. The environment becomes much more part of the gameplay in a open PvP field than in a static PvE pull.

This doesn't mean that it is always as fun as it can be. I believe that a huge improvement would be to get rid of levels, but this would be off-topic here. The point is that the players are there for a potential that isn't fully delivered.

A seed momentarily without water.

(continues here)

Filed in: Ravings | WoW

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

Oliver Smith (not verified) on May 6, 2006 - 05:54.

You really need a good nights sleep and a rethink of your counter-logic to my point about the fact that since Battleground PvP is available on all 156 servers it is the most "successful". Your metric for success may be different than mine, perhaps you are using an aesthetic definition along the lines of "that I prefer".

There are more people playing Battleground PvP than regular PvP. It has more consumers. Ergo it is the more successful product of the two. "If you compare two elements to see which one is the most successful you cannot count one of the two twice". Please be sure and drop a note to Venn. He'll be really upset.

This and the notion that the PvP servers have lower populations than PvE servers originate from things said by Blizzard folks, e.g. at AGC last year and GDC this year.

Most games try one form or the other of PvP -- some people call WoW's PvP a DAoC rip off - its more than that - EQ2 has "Arena PvP" which is too much like Counterstrike PvP, too artificial, and just doesn't cut it the same way WoW's combination does.

The closest thing to WoW's PvP is, perhaps, Anarchy Online. But Blizzard have managed to bring the two together in one game, and successfully sell both the MMO PvP and the CTF PvP to both sides of the fence.

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

Innsmouth on May 6, 2006 - 06:36.

(A + B) > B

Idiot.

I really don't have anything else to say.

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

Oliver Smith (not verified) on May 6, 2006 - 07:43.

Since my criteria for "success" in stating that in WoW the CTF PvP is more successful than the MMO PvP was that there be a higher number of people playing it than simply people playing the WoW MMO PvP, you are absolutely correct A+B > B.

You appear to be trying to make the point that the PvP server players can only be counted as PvP players, and not as CTF PvP players.

So lets try this for size.

Group Pe := Set of players that play PvE on a PvP server.
Group Pm := Set of players that play MMO PvP on a PvP server.
Group Pc := Set of players that play CTF PvP on a PvP server.
Group Ee := Set of players that play PvE on a PvE server.
Group Ec := Set of players that play CTF PvP on a PvE server.

If a player plays both MMO PvP and CTF PvP on a PvP server, s/he is counted in both Pm and Pc. That's how set theory works.

My assertion is that Pc + Ec > Pm.

Since Blizzard has said that over two thirds of their PvP server are in set Pm and at least half of their PvE server players are in group Ec. That means that Pc + Ec > Pm.

You're more than welcome to dispute my criteria for success; I'm not saying I prefer the CTF PvP. But if you can't make that distinction, then you'll probably still be stuck on the whole A+B>B thing.

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

Innsmouth on May 6, 2006 - 08:15.

You appear to be trying to make the point that the PvP server players can only be counted as PvP players, and not as CTF PvP players.

No, my reasoning is different and much simpler and straightforward.

The players are split in two groups. The point is to understand this choice, all the rest is irrelevant.

So what's the ditinctive trait between the two choices? Why half the players have chosen the second instead of the first?

The ONLY difference is the MMO PvP, because the other type is available everywhere and clearly doesn't determine the choice. This is why I say that half the players represent a DEMAND. Blizzard can satisfy the demand or not. But the demand is undeniable.

The fact that CTF PvP is more played doesn't mean anything on its own because this is the direct consequence of the lack of worthwhile alternatives. In the same way the hardcore raids are "successful" because there aren't *worthwhile alternatives*.

Thinking like that is dangerous because it brings to terribly wrong conclusions taken out of the context of their causes. The players play the CTF PvP because it's where the game leads them. and they can only adapt.

There is no fucking way to choose one INSTEAD of the other. Where the fuck is the CHOICE?

What you want today? One apple or one apple?

AH, you chosed THE APPLE. This must mean that I'm right! The apples are more popular.

Great criteria for success you have there.

W O R T H W H I L E - A L T E R N A T I V E S

You cannot compate anything if you don't give both options equal footing.

At the origin there's a clear sign that the players have sent. What happens later is imposed, not chosen. And without an open choice you cannot decide what's more successful.

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

Oliver Smith (not verified) on May 7, 2006 - 04:50.

If a player wants to play MMO PvP, they have to choose a PvP server. If a player wants to play CTF PvP, they can choose either type of server. Players on both types of server are playing the CTF PvP.

You're trying to analyze the quality of the PvP, and I'm not. You're attempting to apply value judgements, I'm wholly trying to avoid them.

The really key thing is that while Blizzard managed to sell MMO PvP to those who chose the PvP servers, but players on the PvE servers - who said no to PvP - actually play the CTF PvP in surprisingly large numbers.

What's important about it is that it tells us that if you want massive sales of PvP, then you need to be looking at CTF/deathmatch style PvP, not "massively" PvP. Massively PvP goes against what makes real PvP good and great and fun.

The money in this industry currently has million-dollar symbols chinged up in its eyes. And devs are chasing it The point has to be made that WoW sold PvP in massive form to under half its players, they had to back down to CTF/deathmatch style PvP to sell it to the rest.

There are devs out there who want to make PvP games, and they think they can compete with WoW for marketshare. They're wrong.

I respect your opinions on how to make WoW's PvP "better", because if you would enjoy it more, that's "better". But if you think that a significant portion of WoW players would agree with you, you've completely failed to understand why WoW is so "dumbed down" :- Their target audience is not you or I, its "freakin' huge numbers of people". So whatever sells to the target audience is "successful". If you don't get that, hey, I'm sorry for wasting your time.

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Re: What PvP means in WoW

smart ass (not verified) on September 28, 2006 - 03:05.

Actually, A+B > B only when A is positive.

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

darkman1 on May 6, 2006 - 13:25.

Also...buddy- counterstrike isnt pvp...its team deathmatch, a whole 'nother concept. Pvp in WoW is just a 3rd party service, unless you contend in a pvp realm, which then opens up pvp as a life-style.. But counterstrike you see, is a thing where you join a server- choose terrorists or counter-terrorists, buy a gun or guns.... and kill....... there is no other way to play counterstrike, otherwise if it was half rp, and part pvp- counterstrike would be a pvp game yes...but its not- so eat a snot....you fot.... (i couldnt think of anything that rhymed with snot, so i tried making fart into fot, hahahah im foony)

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

Oliver Smith (not verified) on May 7, 2006 - 04:56.

*Shrug* PvP means player versus player. It's no more specific than that. You and I both agree that Counterstrike isn't "real" PvP. But if you don't accept the common use of the term, be kinda hard to hold a design discussion with ya (which is where this thread originated). Me, I get my PvP fix in WWII Online, anything else is just carebear to me.

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

Lorekeep on May 7, 2006 - 20:36.

WWII Online is also a terrible game. I tried playing it for 2 hours and gave up because it was so hard to get in to.

Actually that was the worst experience I've ever had with an MMO. Even Planetside was better.

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Re: What means PvP in WoW

Oliver Smith (not verified) on May 8, 2006 - 02:04.

What you experienced there was another man's "PvP". The WWIIOL player base doesn't want eye candy, it wants "reality" manifest as complexity and difficulty through obscurity. The games been alive for 5 years by moving its window around the tiny niche that provides for. For everyone who plays it, it's "the best" PvP around. And it absolutely sucks for the very large majority of the rest of the population.

Plenty of room for these types of games that sate our personal preferences, as long as the developers recognize in advance that they're not going to compete with WoW. *Salutes ShadowBane*

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