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Raph's fault (Narcissus)

Submitted by Abalieno on July 27, 2006 - 02:42.

Answer to that comment:

I can see your point about moving on too early from SWG, but in the case of UO, I was on there for two years after launch, and was in fact the only original team member left. :)

Let's agree on something: both UO and SWG were ruined by the fact that the original minds left. And it will be the same for EVERY mmorpg out there. Now and in the future. Dev teams change and things usually go right in the toilet. In particular those games with a so strong "imprinting".

Bring in more people with new ideas, that's good. But an high churn rate in the dev team will almost surely lead to a disaster. If people won't stick then nothing good is going to come out. Before or after the launch it doesn't change absolutely anything. It's in fact quite obvious that SWG was hurt in particular because it lacked a real direction. Every few months there was someone else at the wheel with a different idea about where to go.

It was your own game and there was noone in the world who could run it beside you. That's the only real truth. *You* killed it the moment you accepted to pass the duty. It's your own responsibility.

Actually I even think that you consciously or unconsciously built it so that the game would have rejected everyone else. Or you or noone else. Like some kind of DNA code identification system that started a countdown to self destruction as someone else tried to "violate" it. You definitely cheated SOE by handing them a crippled game that noone else beside you could have utilized productively.

I do think that not only SWG was rushed out, but that it was also flawed. But this doesn't change the fact that the only one who could have fixed those flaws were you and noone else.

Want to design new games every few months? Good, then DO NOT aspire to be a Lead Designer for a mmorpg. These games aren't waiting rooms where you sit for a couple of months before moving onto something else. A mmorpg is a life-job, if you have the opportunity and privilege to continue. It shouldn't be a walk in the park. Being a Lead Designer should be a daunting task that noone wants, not the easiest way to the game industry stardom.

Plus I only see two different kinds of game designers: the first is the "George Lucas type", who continues to make the exact same game over and over and over. The other is the one who make ONE great game that will be remembered and mimicked for a long time, while all the rest he tries just sucks so hard and is better forgotten.

I wrote that also thinking to what Gordon Walton said about TSO. I mean, you both had the opportunity to continue the development.

It would be different if you were *fired* from the respective projects. In that case it would make sense to "rant" about what went wrong and how things should have worked. But instead you both decided to drop the ball and leave it there. There's no privilege of ranting in that case.

That's too easy. Or you admit that things went wrong and you made a mistake and decided to flee away as quick as possible, or you could have taken the opportunity and kept working on those projects if they were something in which you still believed.

Imho a Lead Designer shouldn't move AT ALL. Stop. There's no "early" or "late". Or there is commitment, or things go to hell.

Or you build a game without personality and so derivative that everyone can lead it. That works too.

SOE did the right thing. Yes. They lobotomized the game because it was the only way for them to break that goddamn DNA lock you sneaked into it.

And *why* you put in that lock? Because it was the greatest way to demonstrate that you are unique and irreplaceable. Or, romantically, a "work of art" ;p

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Re: Raph's fault (Narcissus)

Red5 (not verified) on July 27, 2006 - 07:53.

"Let's agree on something: both UO and SWG were ruined by the fact that the original minds WERE THERE TO BEGIN WITH. And it will be the same for EVERY mmorpg out there."

There. Fixed that for ya. Theory is one thing, execution is another. Until Raph puts out a good game, I wouldn't give a penny for his thoughts.

Abalieno rightfully bashed Raph on Grimwell a year and a half ago, my how things have changed. Take these love letters to PM's please.

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Re: Raph's fault (Narcissus)

Innsmouth on July 27, 2006 - 11:47.

I think you forget the line where I wrote that imho SWG HAD flaws:

I do think that not only SWG was rushed out, but that it was also flawed. But this doesn't change the fact that the only one who could have fixed those flaws were you and noone else.

That's also the exact same thing I commented on brokentoys.

My opinion has always been very consistent about this. Even at that time I blamed Raph to have quit the project for the exact same reasons. He was the only one who could have brought it on, and the only one who had the responsibility to do that. Flawed or not there is no SWG without him (and this is an evidence). Then I have to say that I simply LOVE to see him working and discussing about something concrete, and make plans and projects that we could share and play. Instead of just abstract theories.

SWG hype and launch were GREAT for me because there was Raph behind as a guarantee of dedication, ambition and long term significance, you cannot deny that, you cannot deny that wherever Raph went you felt like something important and great was going to happen. It wasn't something you could easily ignore.

I loved it because he was there "among people", writing about game design and always having great plans. No space at all for mediocrity.

In fact I remember a post on Grimwell where I wrote that it would have been interesting to put beside Raph someone with opposite ideas, and then "let them fight". That's because I always thought that he needed some sort of counterbalance and "antagonism". But to obtain then a systhesis at the end, to have him sensitized on some core points. To have him reacting.

I always criticized some of his ideas on the various forums and here on this website. Nothing ever changed, I have often different opinions and always explained them. What I think about SWG and the critics I made on Grimwell or here are still valid because I don't remember to have changed my mind.

The abstracted puzzle-like unimmersive combat system, accessibility, technology, LFG systems, the "third wall", the decision to lock playstyles as an obligatory choice instead of opening them up for all players, forced interdependence, shantytowns type of housing, the choice to prefer character customization to unique animations for each race and so on. There's a VERY LONG list of things we discussed and criticized from SWG release till today. My opinion on all of them has remained quite consistent.

This still doesn't mean that the game could have existed without him. It was his creature. Noone could have replaced him. Work WITH him, yes. Being an antagonist to force a confrontation, yes. But he has the final word and noone should have ever "prevaricated" his authority.

Why I wrote all that? Because my goal was to challenge and confrontate with him. Because what I wanted was not to accuse him or rant. But reach an agreement, or at least find some basic different points of view (agreeing to disagree).

I kept putting the dirt under his eyes to obtain a synthesis, and not just because I enjoy to be a pain in the ass.

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Re: Raph's fault (Narcissus)

Red5 (not verified) on July 28, 2006 - 10:43.

In fact I can deny that SWG hype and launch were great because the hype was unfounded(beta poll) and launch was terrible.

I do not share your enthusiasm for wherever Raph goes something great and important is going to happen. I think I know what I'm getting with these developers, based on previous work. It is a theme you often touch on. Now a Rob Pardo game on the other hand, would be worth checking out.

An interesting situation you dreamed up with Raph and other developers "fighting it out." Sources tell me that this did happen quite often on the direction of the game (as I'm sure it does in other mmorpgs). But since Raph was head honcho, who would overrule him? He would just as soon take their criticism to the game as he did yours.

You write that playing these games is about increasing personal power. Well it is also true for developing games. That's why developers leave and that's why they cling to their ideas, good or bad.

Raph deserves credit for being active in the community. Beyond that...

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Re: Raph's fault (Narcissus)

Xaldin (not verified) on July 28, 2006 - 16:37.

"Imho a Lead Designer shouldn't move AT ALL"

Then you won't have any more lead designers after a very short period of time. Who wants to end their career that abruptly? With an MMO suposedly lasting for years who wants to say "No I'll never take another project and oh by the way no payraises because I'm capped in my position and I'll turn down the 50% raises a competator offers".

Even the president of the US turns over its position faster than many MMOs lifespans. Expecting people to put an all stop just to babysit a game is absurd.

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Re: Raph's fault (Narcissus)

Raph (not verified) on July 28, 2006 - 17:32.

Uh, wow.

OK, first off, there is no "DNA lock." Certainly nothing intentional. One does not set out to make a game that nobody else can run. That's silly. The corollary is that I somehow bring something so special and so unique to these games that there's nobody else like me, and I think that's crazy -- I am not that special.

Secondly, there were giant mountains of compromise on every aspect of the project. At peak, there were over 30 designers and apprentices working on it -- check the credits. Do you think that I, or anyone, can control or vet everything that 30 people are doing every hour of a crunching day? No, it's impossible. There were and are piles of things that I still don't even know are in the game.

Third, the biggest pushback source for "fights" was actually the producer, who had a very different gameplay style than I did. And I reported to him. :) We used to say "any day where one of us wins all the arguments is a bad day."

Fourth, yes, of course it was flawed. I've tried to own up to that where I can. We disagree on some of the flaws though -- there are things you don't list that I think of as problematic, and vice versa.

Fifth, I moved on because I thought that by taking the CCO job, I would be able to exert greater influence over how online games in general would evolve. I did not see that as an abandonment of SWG.

Sixth, others are right when they say that locking in a lead designer for the life of a project is a mistake. It is a guaranteed way to lose that lead designer FASTER than having them move on eventually.

Lastly... you list two kinds of game designers: ones who make one game over and over, and ones who make one game and then crap. I've seen more types of designers than that...? I'll ponder what you are saying here as I go off to tune this new boardgame I came up with. :)

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Re: Raph's fault (Narcissus)

Innsmouth on August 1, 2006 - 11:05.

Third, the biggest pushback source for "fights" was actually the producer, who had a very different gameplay style than I did. And I reported to him. :) We used to say "any day where one of us wins all the arguments is a bad day."

That's not what I mean when I write that you need an "antagonist". If the producer wants to do a completely different game then the result is just counterproductive because it's like pulling it in two different directions. What I meant was about sharing and agree the same goals, but then have different opinions about how to reach and realize them.

So there must be a shared vision, to then observe from different points of view.

When I was roleplaying the antagonist on the forums I wasn't taking the game to make a completely different one. Instead I was trying to make it realize better its objectives and point out its flaws from my perspective. But without overturning the concept. In fact I wasn't between those who wanted to take the game and merge it with Planetside, for example.

there are things you don't list that I think of as problematic, and vice versa.

Oh, I'm not going to let you disagree like that. You would have to explain in detail (not that I'm asking you to, now).

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