Fear my PvP

I was searching my old design notes about my "dream mmorpg" for something else but I found a part that caught my attention.

Today there are many players who complain about PvP because of bland death penalties. Because there's no permdeath, there's no full looting, no harsh exp losses, corpse camping is often considered griefing and so on. They don't want these possibilities to exist, they want them even encouraged by the rules.

Well, I've always been strongly against those positions because I always thought that PvP should be accessible and fun for everyone. Never punishing or elitist. But I found these notes where PvP is quite harsh, harsher than what you've seen till today, and yet without getting in the way of the gameplay.

It was part of a bigger scheme to make the combat more visceral and cinematic. The idea was about letting players chop off heads and limbs from corpses to create totems with which "decorate" a battleground. "Trophies". That is something with a strong effect but that doesn't remove character progress. It has a strong emotional impact that doesn't leave you indifferent, but at the same time it doesn't cripple the gameplay.

I had divided PvP vibes into two groups. The first was "personal" (corpse looting, permdeath, corpse camping all fall in this category). While the other was "communal" (conquest modes, domination and everything that is usually goal-based). And I decided that the second group was always ok, while the first should be used to "punish" the loser, but without depriving him of his progress or his possibility to play the game. So the idea to go with the emotional impact, on the "roleplay" level.

Think to the extreme scenario where you could kill a character and then rape the body. This would be *more than enough* to drive away from the game in shock and disgust half of your players and create so much noise that the "Hot Coffee" case would be nothing compared. But it is just to say that you CAN make death harsher and have more of an impact without crippling the gameplay or impairing the characters.

It's part of what you may call "taunting". It doesn't have any weight on the rules themselves, but it adds a lot of "spice" and I'm sure it offers something that even the hardcore PvPers would appreciate. Adding the personal satisfaction through totems and similar mechanics (I had planned even a hostage system), while the persistence and purpose through goal-based systems (the conquest mode, housing, city building and so on). Actually I even added notes to give these totems some effects, with enough totems in an area the other faction could suffer a "morale loss" that could work like a slight penalty while fighting in the area. Giving for example the possibility to "decorate" your city walls with these totems as a deterrent for an assault (I didn't decide if the morale penalty would apply only to NPC guards and patrols or also to the players).

In my design notes these totems were also tied to the crafting system, requiring materials to be made, with the purpose to limit their number somehow. The totems would also decay over time, becoming unrecognizable and turning into skulls.

Below these notes about totems there were other ideas for visceral combat. One in particular was about the use of "finishing moves" or "fatalities", with choreographic, dramatic animations and everything.

You could think that the implementation could be problematic because of the netcode, but the way I described them seems doable. Basically I had considered them like normal attack skills to be used only as finishing moves. They could be dodged or parried (I actually described these as the "grabs" in Tekken). The server resolves the action before the whole animation is triggered. If the attack misses, is parried or dodged, the cost of the move (like "rage" or whatever) is paid and lost. Instead if it hits and it deals enough damage to kill the enemy the finishing move animation is triggered and can run freely for a few seconds. During the finishing animation the attacker is invulnerable, so the animation can run uninterrupted without problems, in all its spectacular effect (if you think about it God of War does pretty much the same, making your character invulnerable as long the animation runs).

This gave the possibility to add spectacular, cinematic animations and special fatalities for all classes, maybe in various combinations triggered randomly. A warrior could throw his victim on the ground, block him down with a foot on his chest and then push down his sword on the body. A mage could burn to ashes his victims or freeze them with a cone of cold to send them to pieces shortly after. The more gore-ish, violent and cinematic was the animation, the better.

In particular these animations could be completely in synch, without technical problems thanks to the way they are triggered (after an enemy is "already dead"), offering a strong sense of "touch" between two fighters that is completely missing in today mmorpg's combat. And you could also have a lot of freedom, not only adding 1vs1 animations, but also 1vs many if it's the case.

Thinking about it, it isn't so unreasonable to think these special synched attacks not just as finishing moves when a fighter is already dead, but also to use them mid-combat. You may think that taking out the control from the player to play a synched animation could be frustrating and unfun as a "stun". But a stun locks one player while the other continues to hit, while a synched animation is one attack only. It would become more like a "matrix" mode, a "pause" or a "slowdown", a temporary suspension (of disbelief) in the combat that actually gives you a couple of seconds to plan your next move.

And, of course, the monsters could be enabled to have something similar and very special, cinematic attacks.

It would deserve at least some prototyping to see how far you could go (and no, your middleware won't allow you that).

Re: Fear my PvP

Your hetrocentricity disgusts me. You should be able to rape the corpses of either sex, as well as the corpses of asexuals and transexuals.

Re: Fear my PvP

Ok, edited.

Re: Fear my PvP

Hmm...interesting idea but, from a gameplay perspective, i see problems. If the finishing move makes the attacker temporarily invincible, what's to stop one from using it defensively? For example, a warrior is fighting 2 people, a rogue and a mage. He gets the rogue to near death, then right before the mage's big nuke lands, he hits the finisher and becomes invincible. I suppose you could make it instead delay the damage, giving some sort of temp buff. Like, Adrenaline Rush or something that suspends all damage taken while performing a finisher, then when the move ends all the damage is suffered. Seems that'd be more balanced.

Synched attacks as normal moves seem to work well on paper, but for me they'd break down when it comes to anything more than 1v1. Take the same sample combat above, Warrior vs Mage + Rogue. Rogue uses some sort of attack in combat w/the warrior, holding him in place/preventing any defensive action on his part while the Mage nukes him to death. If you want this instead to slow everyone down, I can't see this as anything less than a major headache for everyone nearby who isnt involved. "Oh crap, someone's fighting near us, so this mob's going to take 3x as long to kill." And imagine the nightmare of this in any kind of large scale PVP. The game "pausing" or slowing down, bullet-time style, every other second as Maybe I'm not reading what you intend right; it seems like the sort of thing that'd be badass in a single player game, but more hassle than it's worth in an MMORPG.

Re: Fear my PvP

He gets the rogue to near death, then right before the mage's big nuke lands, he hits the finisher and becomes invincible.

Finishing moves are effectively time suspensions. You become invincible, but it's not like you can then turn while invincible and kill even the other enemy.

Basically the time is suspended as one target dies. Instead of playing the standard death animation, you see the "choreography". The game then "resumes" after the scene is over.

This SHOULD be used defensively. In God of War it works exactly like that, it's a way to effectively escape from the total mess of a battle between multiple enemies to breathe for a couple of seconds.

And no (lol) the slow down was described metaphorically. The game doesn't really slows down. I was just describing that the synched animations just break the action till they are over, so each special move is just one single attack even if the synched animation can run for a few seconds. There's no "bullet-time" in the sense the time slows down, but only in the sense you can trigger some cinematic scene.

Re: Fear my PvP

Finishing moves are effectively time suspensions. You become invincible, but it's not like you can then turn while invincible and kill even the other enemy.

Still, in my example he'd have ignored damage from the mage's nuke. He can't go over there and smash the mage without fear of further nuking, but still, its lame.

This SHOULD be used defensively. In God of War it works exactly like that, it's a way to effectively escape from the total mess of a battle between multiple enemies to breathe for a couple of seconds.

How is that realistic at all? Because the warrior's busy chopping the rogue's head off, the fireball no longer hurts him?

There's no "bullet-time" in the sense the time slows down, but only in the sense you can trigger some cinematic scene.

Ok, that makes sense. By cinematic you mean an in game animation right, and not a cutscene like you find in a Final Fantasy game? Thats how i think you mean it, but if its the otherway, zomg no! lol

I still don't see that this is viable in a multiplayer game without it just suspending the damage while you're finishing them. Moves that make you invincible just because you're doing something cool looking are anti-immersive to me, illogical.

Re: Fear my PvP

Man... After reading your post I just had to comment (to the pvp part):

GO PLAY PVE, and dont bother with PvP cause you dont seem to understand anything regarding PvP.

Anyone who use WoW as their benchmark for PvP will inevetably come up with some total BS like your post.

Of course the looser is supposed to be PUNISHED. Of course the winner takes it all.

Anyone tried Shadowbane? In that wonderful, although bugged game, you could tear down you oppent's playermade city in a few hours. A city that a whole guild had spent months, even years, building. Wonderful!

Bring the EVIL back to PvP.

Re: Fear my PvP

Communal objectives are an entirely different matter.

I'm all for Guild vs Guild (even within the same faction), conquest and city razing in PvP. But with an objective, not for personal punishment and with accessibility costs.

It IS possible to save many aspects that were cool in Shadowbane without the need to make an unforgiving game inaccessible to most.

Re: Fear my PvP

In my Dream MMorpg PVP death essential. Zones have a certain life or death rateing based on how many people have died in that zone within the last so and so amount of time. Certain skill sets (i.e. Necromancer, or Healers) fuel theire spells with this life or death energy, and the effectiveness of the spells where based off what that rateing was. I'd even go as far as to limit some spells to only be cast-able in zones with extremely high Life or Death rateings. These spells would be epic in nature and only castable occasionally, but if let's say your guild mounts an assault against a neighboring guilds town, and your melee does it's job and hacks through the enemies defenses quick and brings the death rateing up in the zone very fast, your guild Necro mancers could perform a dance of the dead spell where all the corpses in that zone get up and attack the town. upon useing up all the death energy in the zone the life energy would be extremely high which would then give the healers of the opposeing team serious juju to combat the Undead horde and as well as your guild, however your guild has the ability to take advantage of the Life energy as well to heal up your troops and prepare for the next assault while your zombies keep the enemy busy. It makes death have meaning and adds to actual tactics in PVP that aren't just offense defence ratios.

Maybe this is too complicated, But hey i just want death to have a meaning other than, I Just POWNZORD JOO NOOBsauce.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.