No math in games (reinstated)

Submitted by Abalieno on December 23, 2006 - 01:49.

I got an odd question in the mail that I'll back-up here:

In your "Dream MMO" how much information do you give the players? Do you give them the math behind the numbers? Do you give them all the numbers (leaving the math behind the numbers a simple exercise reverse engineering)? Can you show them NONE of the numbers? What different levels would you define to group the different styles of showing numbers? What's the benefits & drawback of these levels? Which ones are more viable?

I always intented the "ruleset" of my dream mmorpg as a pen&paper ruleset. So rules that could be managed by human player in a normal play session and simple dice rolls.

All the "logic" of the game is supposed to be "readable". So full disclosure of the mechanics, but not only. It's not just about revealing them, but also designing them so that they can be understood and used easily.

That was one of the basic goals behind the "dream mmorpg".

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Beside many reasons (that I explained partially in a post with a similar title), there's also the fact of the "genre". RPG are fun also because rules are fun on their own. It's fun discussing them, it's fun learning them. They "belong" to a world as much as the content itself. An RPG is also the tomes you had to read. Reading the rules of a pen&paper game was an integral part of the experience that I want recuperated in a mmorpg.

As it's fun personalizing the avatar, it's also "fun" having detailed character sheets with many statistics. So, even the rules, are a part of the play. And it's a good practice to let the players in contact with them. Use them and enjoy them. While also keeping the game design and the maintenance of the code (in particular in large projects) much more viable.

"No math in games" is a general principle that I believe could do wonders. Keeping things simple and intuitive.

Filed in: Ravings | Game Design | Dream mmorpg

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Re: No math in games (reinstated)

DrWiz (not verified) on December 23, 2006 - 07:45.

Sounds like NWN2 without the MMO part.

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Re: No math in games (reinstated)

Innsmouth on December 23, 2006 - 13:45.

With the difference that I want a ruleset designed to be fun to play as a computer game. But with rules easy to read.

D&D just doesn't work well as a computer game. It's something I always repeated.

And then a bunch of reason why I wouldn't use D&D (levels and all the rest).

My "dream mmorpg" was originally modeled after the Elric!/Stormbringer Chaosium ruleset.

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Re: No math in games (reinstated)

Rendakor (not verified) on December 24, 2006 - 01:51.

I agree wholeheartedly that D&D doesnt work well as a computer game, esp. not an MMO. its designed to be turn based, and doesnt translate to real time well at all imo.

I do like the idea in the post of having the entire SYSTEM (mechanics, ruleset, whatever word you like) exposed and available to the players. The only drawback is that it can be anti-immersive. An epic sword sounds more in-character than a 3d10+15 sword. *shrugs* Maybe have less of the numbers/mechanics visable on roleplay servers? Never really figured out the solution to this, i just know that all the mechanics in D&D have very frequently lead to munchin-ism, or focusing only on the mechanical side of the game, and not the roleplay or story aspect.

As an aside, have a happy secular winter/year's end holiday. ^^

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Re: No math in games (reinstated)

DrWiz (not verified) on December 24, 2006 - 03:45.

Very interesting concept.

I agree with both of you, D&D just doesn't fit in a video game format... and Im not sure why.

I spent most of the '70's & 80's playing D&D in the back rooms of local Hobby stores and I always fantasised about playing the game with visuals. At the time we used small lead figureines that we painted to represent our character or characters. I always thought... wouldn't this be cool if we could actually "be" our characters and actually "see" the enemies that we fought.

I think I was wrong, it seems that using your imagination is more fun. I've had alot more fun playing D&D with dice and a pencil than I ever did with a mouse.

I disagree on the level thing, you have to pay your dues before you can be the BMOC Dragon Slayer.

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Re: No math in games (reinstated)

Ciron2 (not verified) on January 3, 2007 - 07:46.

Not certain on this but I don't think D&D equates to CRPGs very well since the D&D rules were designed to give RPers a system that would allow them to function (kill sh*t, etc.) in a fantasy world. The D&D system defines the rules for how a fight should be carried out but it also guides the fight and provides feedback so the players know what's happening.

The two latter parts aren't really needed in a CRPG(MMO or otherwise) you're already functioning in a virtual world, you can see what's happening and you don't need a rule set to show you what's happening. All your need really, imo is a game engine that lets you grab a stick and start beating something to death with it. Of course, this needs to be balanced and it needs to work so there do need to be mechanics as well as "rules" for abilities, weapons, armour and so on, just not something that's guiding the fight, this should be done by the players, the AI for the mobs and the actuality of the environment.

This is why I see MMOs such as AoC going in the right direction. I'm not saying it's not viable to have turn-based combat or that everything should be twitch but D&D was designed for a completely different situation. Of course, it might just be that developers using an old established system are just lazy and the games suffer for other reasons.

As to transparency of mechanics, apart from the P&P stuff, I agree with Abalieno for the most part, the rules should be clear. Though there's something to be had from not everything being known, it's fun to discover a way of getting ridiculous health, or making x attack do sick damage without it just being a case of looking up everything you need to do it.

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