Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

For MONTHS after the first screenshots of Warhammer Online were released there was the argument about whether WoW copied Warhammer or the other way around.

People who saw only WoW and thought Warhammer was a copy and people who claimed to know better said that it was Blizzard to have copied and pillaged Warhammer for years.

Both kinda true.

True that Blizzard didn't invent anything. Not just in gameplay, but also the setting and its style. Copied from Game Workshop, copied from Giger. Mostly because, as it happens with many franchises, the original games were bland and with no depth. Derivative. Ultima started derivative as well. Then all games, when successful and spawning series and consolidated settings, start to acquire a personality.

But rarely they are truly original or don't have roots somewhere.

Now the point is: WoW came before even the concept of Warhammer Online. Graphically, WoW has ITS OWN distinctive style. That people easily recognize. It's not just a general setting style. It's a visual style all-around. You can see at a glance if a screenshot comes from WoW. It goes FAR BEYOND being "cartoonish". It's WoW. Everyone recognizes it.

*Then* Mythic takes the concept of bringing Warhammer to an online version. They do have WoW under their eyes. They aren't oblivious. They know its style. When the screenshots of Warhammer appeared on the internet they said they weren't copying. Defended their choices saying that Warhammer came first. That Blizzard copied that style.

Now I ask you to look at this.

If the artist(s) who produced that say that they went for an original style that wasn't trying to replicate *precisely* WoW's style... Well, they would be some of the bigger and shameless liars in the world.

And this isn't just about artists "taking inspiration". This is a blatant CORPORATE MANDATE. To make Warhammer look AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to WoW in the hope to overlap the market and try to reach exactly that target.

I'm not saying this is a bad or unacceptable move. I'm saying they are COWARDS who won't admit what they are doing. And it is under everyone's eyes.

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

Heh, that's pretty funny. I would have guessed that the screenshot was from WoW if not for the strange difference in the detail on everything in the scene. Also they need to increase the quality of the terrain textures since it does take up ~30% of the view in the picture. I guess it's a work in progress though so I would wait to pass final judgment.

-furrot

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

The inescapable truth is that every MMORPG is a rehash of the standard Tolkien derived lore, coupled to a game which often feels like having your molars pulled. Want to impress me Mythic? Don't use logic that a sixth grader could poke holes through to prove that *somehow* you are on top of the pile of steaming feces, don't make the arguement that you aren't actually copying Blizzard because they copied your source material (which holds very little interest to the standard MMO player if the game sucks), just build a game I don't have to grind through one tedious hour after another to get anywhere. Then the claim to originality might actually mean something.

(I use the term grind to denote a given period of time when the mechanics of improving your character are frustratingly apparent, if you actually enjoy it and lose track of the time wasted it's not a grind.)

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

Amazing how closely that image resembles some of the drawings from my High Elf Armies book, which is more than ten years old. Have they been copying WOW's graphical style since 1998?
Ehmmmmm.....

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

You're welcome to show scans of it.

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

I can confirmate that, is genuine Warhammer elves architecture.

Possibly I break some NDA but I can add that the screen is not representative of the area around, the terrain and ilumination is much more realistic and detailed than WoW, this is a very selected image for a intentional rant about WAR copying WoW, the elves areas are very different to elves areas in WoW, and that include NPC models, clothes and armors, war machinery, etc.

Elves is WoW are more in contact with nature, have a druidic magic, living in trees and in wood houses, and only some temples are build in stone, elves in Warhammer are much more magical and ethereal is essence, are inspired in clasical cultures how greece, all their buildings are build with stone or marble and have a fine termination, in contrast with WoW elves rustic style. The predominat colors in WoW elves are green and red, in WAR are white and black, WoW elves have very long hears and luminous eyes, WAR elves are how Tolkien elves but more ugly..., more?

And why not post some WAR dark elves screens and compare with WoW blood elves?

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that when people speak of elves in Warcraft that they are speaking of the "original" World of Warcraft elves: the Night Elves. This is not the case, a more credible comparison is this photograph to that of Falconwing Square:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Falconwing_square.jpg

If you have a copy of the game I would suggest you start a Blood Elf character and look at the starting zone, specifically Falconwing Square and the surrounding area.

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

Sorry, guess i just don't have enough interest in WoW because the "hawt evidence" posted didn't immediately scream "zomg, ripoff" to me. More than anything it just felt like generic_fantasy_game_753 and for that matter my first impression on seeing it was, it resembled LotRO rather than WoW. Compared to both these games WoW appears visibly more bulky, stylized and rough, and one could argue the pictured designs are derived from Warhammer's own high elves style ( http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/highelves/terrain/showcase/default.htm ) rather than WoW's rendition of it.

Btw, designs for PnP board game would unsurprisingly pre-date both WAR *and* WoW so it's hard to claim WoW was first just because they were first to turn them into 3d virtual files.

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

More than anything it just felt like generic_fantasy_game_753 and for that matter my first impression on seeing it was, it resembled LotRO rather than WoW.

For the purpose of what Alabieno is saying the specific game they are copying doesn't matter.

Compared to both these games WoW appears visibly more bulky, stylized and rough, and one could argue the pictured designs are derived from Warhammer's own high elves style rather than WoW's rendition of it.

True, to an extent. WoW's roughness is somewhat derived from age, were it to get an overhaul you would likely see a lot more similarities, as both games seem to use the same combo of low-quality models and high-quality textures for the scenery. Don't look at the screenshots expecting to find a carbon copy, look through them again and try to discern methods in addition to artistic style and the end result.

Also, due to the fact that we are dealing with computer rendered 3D worlds you should also be looking for similarities in shading and lighting, which are largely a result of runtime game engine effects. The games are likely to have similarities, as they likely use the same standard DirectX or Shader Model x.x libraries with slightly modified variables (or arguements, for the programmer types), but you can see fairly plainly that the lighting and shading are very similar, despite the fact that other more recent shaders could easily be implemented without too much processing overhead being added for a modern PC. For example, HDR Lighting has proven to be extremely popular, and depending on the card might not have much overhead at all (my Radeon X1900 GT experiences no noticable hit with HDR enabled in Oblivion), could easily be toggled off for older computers, and doesn't even require a whole lot in order to implement (I have HDR mod for Morrowind, it's not great, but the modder himself admitted to not knowing much about writing shaders).

Btw, designs for PnP board game would unsurprisingly pre-date both WAR *and* WoW so it's hard to claim WoW was first just because they were first to turn them into 3d virtual files.

Relevant quote from Alabeino:

I'm not saying this is a bad or unacceptable move. I'm saying they are COWARDS who won't admit what they are doing. And it is under everyone's eyes.

They claim they have invented the wheel and so have rights to it. They didn't invent the wheel, they didn't invent this new, steel belted rubber with inflatable inner-tube wheel. Neither did Blizzard for that matter, but Blizzard has never to my recollection made a huge fuss about inventing anything; MMO, strategy game, or otherwise (they claim to be re-inventing all the time though, which is both true and remarkably humble for a company that has delivered enough hits that their ego should be inflated to monstrous proportions). If you admit that something has been copied by Warhammer then you've already conceded the point to Alabieno (that the War devs are full of ____), it's merely a matter of specifics (they copied LoTRO, not WoW, or whatever else you might come up with as an example).

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

For the purpose of what Alabieno is saying the specific game they are copying doesn't matter.

To the contrary, because Abalieno's point is worded very precisely:

If the artist(s) who produced that say that they went for an original style that wasn't trying to replicate *precisely* WoW's style... Well, they would be some of the bigger and shameless liars in the world.

And this isn't just about artists "taking inspiration". This is a blatant CORPORATE MANDATE. To make Warhammer look AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to WoW in the hope to overlap the market and try to reach exactly that target.

in short, Abalieno appears to be saying they're making Warhammer look as close as possible to WoW and the "shameless lie" is their unwilingless to admit it.

My counter-point to it is simply, the screenshot presented as 'evidence' doesn't actually feel much like WoW. That very WoW which, again according to Abalieno, is to have its very own visual style to the point where "you can see at a glance if a screenshot comes from WoW."

This opinion about WoW having distinct visual style is something i actually agree with. Where we differ is rather, this new game that is supposed to blatantly copy that style... imo doesn't. The feel is different, to the point where in my eyes it resembles more a completely different game if anything at all.

but you can see fairly plainly that the lighting and shading are very similar, despite the fact that other more recent shaders could easily be implemented without too much processing overhead being added for a modern PC. For example, HDR Lighting has proven to be extremely popular, and depending on the card might not have much overhead at all

The lighting and shading is bound to be very similar because both games rely on the same lighting and shading equations/concepts that are shared and utilized by dozens of thousand of games by now. (and which were devised some 10 years before 8-bit computers made it to people households) If this is some sort of sign of "copying WoW" then... well, mind boggles tbh. It's not unlike claim a MMO with autoattack is copying WoW because it was given autoattack too... and hundreds of other games also having this exact same mechanics and utilizing it long before WoW was twinkle in its makers' eye are to be ignored.

Seriously, if a game is required to have HDR rendering and who knows what else just to avoid accusation it's ripping off WoW... then it's getting just tad bit too absurd.

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

There are two aspects that jump to the eye.

One is the way the terrain is textured and modeled. This is something peculiar of WoW, with that "rounded" style everywhere. And the hill on that screenshot shows how they went for the exact same look. Not just about the roundness, but also in the way the textures blend (and this isn't just an artist choice, as that kind of terrain needs a technical implementation that must be in the editor they use. And that the engine they use didn't have yet, as DAoC and Oblivion are similar and don't share at all the round look).

The second element are the decorations, that look and feel very similar to the blood elf zone in WoW. The fountain, those smaller trees, and the towers in the background, a combo used in the exact same way in WoW.

Add in the oddly colored trees (that in WoW are red, and in Warhammer blue), and you can see how that screenshot seems a direct parody of WoW.

There isn't anything else in the screenshot, and all the elements present have parallels to WoW.

About the "evidence" I made a test on a forum, and I assure a lot of people were confused.

Re: Nope, this isn't about cartoonish style

Frankly the screenshot being used to justify this post reminds me much more of LOTRO. As well, we're looking at a screen that is not final art. It's quite clear that the atmospherics and lighting have not been implemented (at least for this screenie). That could and would change the mood drastically and is just as important as the actual design piece itself.

I will concede that the style of the roaming hill (WoW goldshire hills) in the background and the jewels remind me of the blood elf artwork. The rest of it, as someone posted above, harkens back to game workshop's pre-existing art. The rest of it is simply too generic to attribute it to being of WoW conception.

I see some similarities in some screens but the similarities to warhammer art is much stronger than the similarity to WoW artwork. The same way I see similarities between some of the art, and yes there are, in lotro and DAOC post catacombs. It's there and any artist, and I should know, and the art & design community in general, will tend to inspire each other no matter how hard we try not to be or try to distance ourselves from someone else's artwork. It's a very small circle as is the MMORPG developer community. Things go round and round.

From what I have seen, I think it's pretty premature to claim an outright lie or disingenuity on anyone's part tbh. WoW was influenced by warhammer was influenced by WoW. Art & design tends to work very much in that manner...and many times with the creators themselves being none the wiser (usually takes a viewer/3rd party to spot the similarities). Unless something is a direct ripoff/replication (ala iphone & it's china knockoff), then that's a different story. In this case, I'm not seeing the ripoff except for a couple similarities.

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