Wrecking guilds

Think of it like the North American congress/senate. In this case, rolling the dice the game provided would be like the senate, where every player/state is given equal chance/voice, despite their contributions/population. This system is unfair in the sense that it ignores anything "good" a player has done for a guild (over time), and also ignores the population of a state.

DKP in this case would be like the congress, where your chance/voice is determined specifically by your contribution/population.

Neither case, in my opinion, is more "fair" than the other case. The rolling system is fairer when you weigh the merits of contribution given to a specific raid, whereas the DKP system is fairer when you weigh the merits of contribution given to a guild over a series of raids.

Unlike game loot systems, the congress and senate both have equal power. Maybe long lasting guilds would eventually adopt a loot structure like that, but it is doubtful.

Agreed. Unfortunately for the 2 million+ who have been introduced to the MMO genre via WoW, this is setting the foundation of how they will expect the genre to play. So once the shine wears off of WoW and they seek new pastures, they'll most likely fall back on these broken systems that have been taught to them . . . because that's all they know.

DKPs, mandatory raid participation, etc, are pretty much the total antithesis of the reason I game. However, I have some friends that fall in the 'catass' category, and while DKP favors hardcore raiders over the more casual participants, need vs. greed can cause even more friction. One friend played some oddball jack-of-all-trades class in EQ while a member of a raiding guild, and was skanked on all the good gear, since there was always an up-and-coming tank, healer, or nuker that the guild leaders determined that the gear was better-suited for.

The big problem that DKPs address is that raid item drops are usually not transferable, nor are items of typical raid loot quality easily purchased or crafted. If I as a WoW hunter go on three raids a month and all that dropped on the raids are wands, staves, and plate armor, I'm SOL even if I win the loot roll.

Rather than make the good items nodrop/notrade and only available in the raid, make crafted items of as high a quality of raid drops. This way you have two routes to top-end items - purchase from a crafter or acquire on a raid.

There's a thread on F13 I've noticed after writing my point of view on the same problem.

Between all the solutions I think that a fixed DKP system could be the most suitable. Instead of letting the catasses heaping points and then fight between each other by bidding on loot, all the loot has a fixed value. As a simple example think that a blue item costs five points and a purple item ten. Then by participating in a raid from the beginning to end gives you one point.

Once you have enough points you can then spend them to roll on stuff. So a minimum threshold is set without creating exponential gaps between the players. When more than one player spends points on the same item they roll and confrontate the result. Who wins will get the item and the points detracted from his pool.

During a raid a player can win only a maximum of one item.

With these simple rules you are able to distribute the loot more equally between the players, without discriminating too much and without creating irrecoverable gaps between them.

My MC raid group runs a zero-sum DKP system, meaning points are rewarded to the group only when points(meaning loot) are made. Recently, we've been rotating raid nubs(and alts) in for boss kills just because certain classes have either all their items or are massively negative in points.

DKP has huge advantages that far outweigh any negatives. It encourages regular attendance(which leads to better success), speeds up loot distribution, and settles most, if not all, loot issues. But DKP is really about the future or the next raid, not just how to split up the current loot(because if you didn't win, you basically wasted your time). It's designed to keep players coming back. It means your efforts today will pay off tomorrow. As testament, our raid group has been going strong for several months, and has weathered the lows because the DKP system encouraged players to keep coming back.(we finally beat Rag 3.0 tonight). Other raid groups on our server who never really used DKP(because they often had to rely on pickups to fill their raids) have fallen apart.

"The loot rules built in the system cannot be more "fair" than how they are. If you go in a raid, you can roll for an item. Everyone has equal possibilities to roll and get his chance to win. No system can be more fair than this."

This is only fair on the surface. Nobody likes the newcomer joining in, winning something, then disappearing. Nobody likes the hot roller either. Such loot rules are really a sign of lack of organization, which is what's causing smaller guilds to crumble apart. The catass guilds can only become so big, since raids have a 40 man limit.

I can understand your urge to rant on this subject because I've gone through something similar myself. I bet not a single one of those you tried to reason with understood where you were coming from. It's like when my nephew was pirating software and I tried to explain that it was stealing. He was all full of "what ifs" and "but ..." -- everyone's heard the excuses. What it boiled down to was that he really really wanted that software free, he didn't like thinking of himself as a thief, therefore pirating was not stealing no matter what anyone says.

The raiders want more phat lewt at the expense of others, they don't want to think of themselves as something lower than a used car salesman, therefore it's fair and they do deserve to get more than others no matter what anyone says.

It's futile. They'll never understand because they don't want to understand. It's not in their self-interest. All you can do is leave, shake the dust off your sandals, and hope that somewhere you can find a guild full of decent human beings. Yeah, I know. Fat chance of that in a game like WoW.

Everything posted here is little amazing to me. Why does everyone assume it must be one system or the other? First off, it is common practice to only allow 1 blue item per raid in the smaller 10 or 15 man instances. That in and of itself revises the /random system. Why can't that same idea be applied to large raids, just extended a bit? You get 1 point per raid (or boss since MC is a bit unique), with a cap at like 3 or 4 points. To win something, you spend all your points, then you start over. There is no accumulation, and if there is a tie then you /random. At least that way if it takes you 2 weeks to build up 3 points, and a casual player 2 months, you still had to participate in bringing down just as many bosses to get TO that number. Both of you deserve a fair shot at the loot. Maybe one week you get lucky and spend 1 point instead of 3. So what? The DKP system fluctuates based on need as well. And even if this system won't work, it is simply an example that there are certainly other options out there besides only /random and DKP.

The DKP system in theory sounds like it should work rather well, but it's certainly not fair. You can change and revise it all you want, the base theory is that the rich get richer. If you had the same group of people week after week, and you just wanted to make sure that A didn't get 3 pieces of loot before B got 1, then DKP is fine. But what happens when other people want to go on the raid? How do you fairly determine who gets to go and who doesn't? And if you don't ALLOW someone to go on a raid, and the piece they have been saving up for drops... how is that fair either? The points are completely worthless if you aren't there to spend them.

Unfortunately, the main problem with DKP is that it effectively eradicates any need for honor and selflessness, and aggressively promotes greed and selfish behavior. Instead of setting high standards and expecting people to meet them, and holding them accountable too, we are playing to the lowest common denominator and then wonder why there are oftentimes such rotten people rearing their ugly heads in these guilds. The only guilds that should be considering DKP are those who are completely comprised of hardcore raiding gamers. Casual players cannot be included fairly in this system, and should simply run the second they hear DKP is headed their way.

The reason this all came about is because some random newb raider got into a raid and won a roll against some catass.

Catass turned around and built up DKP.

Sad fact is the catass regardless of the system used has a GREATER chance of getting their loot. The DKP just ENSURES it. Without DKP the catass is still going to attend way more raids than a casual player, but with no DKP that casual player has a CHANCE to beat out the catass on a good item. The catass never takes into account that he has a much better chance at getting the loot he wants because he will be in more raids. Random rolls are the FAIREST way for all players.

Even with DKP a casual raider (not gamer, well because casual gaming conflicts any raiding possibilities) will never have an equal chance at getting good items. The catasses will have prime pick of loot because they have the DKP totals and can win the bidding wars.

Somehow a catasses time requires more reward than a casual gamers... and its fucking sad.

I personally dislike DKP, but I'll play devil's advocate. How is it "fair" that a person who has worked 4 hours to getting an item should have the same consideration as someone who has worked for 14 hours for the same item? The system isn't intended to be fair in the context of a single raid, but in the context of a long term farming situation. It pre-supposes that the people involved will be making regular, repeated runs.

While I understand what you're trying to say, take this scenario into consideration.

Mage A has participated in the past 6 raids over a 3 week span, no mage loot has dropped. Mage B has participated in zero raids over the last 3 weeks.
Raid #7: Mage loot drops.

Mage B beats Mage A on roll and receives loot.

Later...

Raid #12: Mage loot drops.

Mage B (2nd time raiding) beats Mage A (Full-time Participant) on roll and receives loot.

This is of course unlikely and a bit more extreme, but we've all heard stories about how a specific class almost never has any drops for it throughout multiple raids. I do not believe that rolling in this case is fair at all. Of course I don't agree with the usual attitudes that are developed amongst players over DKP. It's a tough subject to say the least.

I think People that disagree with dkp systems really just A) don’t understand the benefits, or B) want the reward for less effort

I have been raiding in wow for about 4 months now and have been using dkp since day 1. Forget all that many have mentioned as far as why dkp is good or bad you have to think of it this way. If a warrior goes to every raid he is more of an asset to the guild than a warrior who can play 1nce a week. Dkp is a way to reward the people who attend and contribute towards the guilds end game progression the most. Its not away to get the gm and officers phat lewt before everyone else. The gm appointed these people to be officers BECAUSE they are an asset to the guild. If this warrior that comes on once a week gets on and the guild is hitting onyxia.

Onyxia is killed in 15 mins and a helm of wraith drops. How could you possibly say that it’s fair for the person who puts less time into the guild and its progression? If that warrior gets the helm it not only sucks for the warrior who raids all the time but it hurts the guild as a whole imo. Now if that’s the item this less consistent warrior wants more than anything and a dkp system is in place, He can save those points for it. When it drops he can spend them, He has then earned the item.

I still think it hurts the guild in the end but that’s what he spent his dkp (or time) for. The fact is. Its like this, If you work 25 hours a week and your buddy works 40 (doing the same job) should you get paid the same cause its not fair you get paid less?

Face it, no loot system is perfect but the way I see it (and the way most raiders see it) is that dkp is the most reliable and fair way, If you want to be casual and participate in non casual activities you need to either join a casual raiding guild that raids 1-2 times a week or pick up a new game.

I am a catass.

"This is what happens objectively, it's not an opinion and cannot be discussed. It's not a case that it has been adopted by the more catass guilds because, at its roots, the system is meant to favor that group of peoples. It was built by them to favor themselves."

Definitely right. Why would we create a system favoring people who would never be affected by its mechanics?

"The whole purpose is to get shoulder penises and make your character stronger and stronger by competing with your friends over that loot."

Wrong. All of us have a desire for better equipment but it's not our primary drive for doing raids and having a DKP-System. We want to raid for the fun of raiding, experience new encounters and overcome the challenges. Especially post-MC encounters, in BWL, ZG and AQ, are quite different then the ones you see in the game on your road from level 1 to 60. To succeed we need equipment to get to the players that most benefit the entire raid. In our system we allow druids, priests and warriors to bid for damagegear, but we expect them to pass on an item, if players that actually deal damage in our raids can improve with that gear. Although there is no penalty whatsoever, none of our PvP-active Shadowpriests has ever bid for the Talisman of Ephemeral Power - and they want it bad - because mages and warlocks need it, too.

"If we translate this to other forms of government and politics (because guilds are a form of government and not much else at this same level) it can be quite obvious how this pattern can be identified as a "conflict of interests". The peoples at the top make rules that favor themselves while discriminating everyone else."

This comparison is wrong. The catasses do not impose anything on casual players. We devised a system for ourselves. We raid 3 days a week for 4-7 hours per raid. Guild members are expected to be available for 2 raids per week. Casual gamers, that cannot play for more than 2 hours per day, cannot join our guild and are in no way affected by our DKP-System. And the guild leaders who devised the system, I'm one of them, are in no way favored above our regular guild members.

If you don't like DKP-Systems, fine. Find some like-minded people and raid using random-rolling. But don't tell us about fairness and greediness. We make our rules for ourselves. It's like you joining a soccer team and picking up the ball with your hands and saying you want to throw it. If you're with us, you play soccer. Nobody forces you to join.

"Hardcore Joe wants an uber drop. He will work towards it at 6 hours a day raiding for it. So after five days he gets it at 30 hours invested.
Casual Bob wants an uber drop, but can only play for 2 hours every other day. So it will take him 100's of hours to achieve that goal."

Transferred to my guilds system. Joe participates in 3 raids per week, Bob in 1. Both desire the same item, which drops every 5th raid. In week two the item drops. 1) Only Joe is present. He gets the item. 2) Joe and Bob are present. Joe gets the item, because he has more DKP. At this time Joe has four-times as many Points as Bob. Joe has attended 5 raids, Bob 2. On the 10th raid, week 4, the item drops again. Bob is unfortunately not there. On the 15th run, week 5, Bob isn't there again. On the 20th raid, week 7, Bob gets it after having attended 7 raids. Bob would have gotten it on the 10th raid, after having attended only 4 raids compared to Joe's 5 raids, if he had been there. That he wasn't doesn't entitle him to the item in week 2. The drop is deterministic and not random here, obviously, but on a large scale both get the item after roughly the same time investment, Joe gets it earlier though.

The problem I see is the itemdrops being random. While members of certain classes have their t1-sets complete, twinks have been equipped and further drops are being disenchanted, others are still far from being that well equipped, though they definitely put much more time and effort into our raids than beforementioned twinks. Best example, a hunter that has been in our guild for two days gets the petrified leaf while some priests, that have been raiding for months still wait for the eye of divinity. As Blizzard can obviously prevent paladin-equipment from dropping in horde-raids, I would really appreciate if the game could check the raid participants when generating the loot-tables.

As has been stated by others before, I am also under the impression that the OP is the greedy one here. You want items without working for them. The entire tone and style of your article says: envy. I would love to see more 5-man instances, too, and I agree that under the current system there is not enough content for level 60 casual players, because they have virtually no chance of succeeding in BWL and AQ40. But the answer to that problem lies in the design of endgame instances and content in general and not in DKP-Systems.

People that give an opinion about something without understanding the logic or function only proves to be an idiot. There are a gazillion resources on the web about DKP systems. Read one before making a idiotic post stating random rolling is more fair than a DKP system 'designed' to give everyone an equal share of loot.