PvP endgame - Better models are possible, always

Written on QT3 forums as result of this discussion about the PvP endgame between WoW, DAoC and other games.

Also consequence of this old discussion.

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We gave a glance to the advantage/disadvantages of them. I said that better models are possible and this thread is to suggest a solution to explain my point of view and demonstrate concretely what I consider a "better model". So you can see directly what I mean and agree/disagree.

To build it I borrowed the best parts of WoW, DAoC and Planetside. Adding my own ideas to the general shape.

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The idea I suggested a year ago was built on this principle:
"Designing a game which allows players not to HAVE to play regularly".

- At the base the system works like DAoC. You gain points and progressively unblock ranks. The relevant difference is that these points are only gained by achieving PvP goals and never by killing players directly. The enemies are considered simply as "obstacles" that step in your way and that you need to get rid of in order to reach your goal.

- As you gain points you unblock ranks in a similar way to what happens in both WoW and DAoC but as a "flat treadmill".

- Ranks unblock new skills but you do not gain them automatically. You do not fill a rank as you unblock it. You unblock only the *possibility* to fill it.

- The skills and spells a rank offers aren't cumulative. So you can use exclusively the skills/spells that are tied directly to the single rank you fill at that precise moment.

- Ranks get assigned to groups and raids through a voting system (also based on ranks). So, for example, every group of "normal players" will have just one commander assigned and each raid will have a finite number of officers and just one leader (to simplify, the actual system offers many different ranks/"roles").

- These ranks will be assigned through the voting system and to the players that were able to unblock them by gaining the appropriate amount of points.

- When a character is within a specific rank he gets access to specific new skills that are tied to his particular role. These skills are for the most part area-based effects that affect his squadron, the enemies or the environment. So, generally, not just more powerful versions of the same skills/spells he uses normally. This to give each rank a different *role* in the battlefield and not just making the character directly more powerful. Ranks are meant to unblock specific purposes and possibilities, not to make the single player more powerful.

This system allows to appoint players that are considered "naturally" leaders by giving them a recognized role in the game and specific skills that are appropriate for the situation. It also differentiates the gameplay so that different ranks behave in different ways on the battlefield.

The system can then be extended to PvE to create more dynamic situations instead of the repetitive models in the endgame content in games like WoW.

Plus, the bigger goal, it brings together the casual players and the catasses. It allows them to join their forces and rely on each other. Since the ranks are unblocked and assigned in groups and raids, not everyone will just become more powerful. A group of five players will always have just one commander. Even if ALL the players in that group have the "commander" rank already unblocked, only one of them will fill that role after being voted by the group.

So if you want to be a leader you don't just have to catass but also build your own *reputation* with the community so that after you unblocked a rank you are also voted to fill and use it.

The system is called "Flat Power Treadmill" since it doesn't define direct advancement paths like in other games. You don't gain directly more power between the ranks. Instead you gain a different roles, different goals and differemt responsibilities, making the gameplay more interactive and dynamic. At the same time you always need "normal players" in your group in order for someone to fill an higher rank, so you'll NEVER see in the game a full group of commanders or higher ranks. It isn't an endless race to be more "leet". The higher ranks will always have to rely on the "casual players" to have access to their powers.

This offers an incentive to go on and unblock new interesting roles in the battlefield (for example in a game with vehicles only higher ranks could get access to them or some specific weaponry). So this is an incentive to play and enjoy the game in the long term (retention of subscriptions). At the same time it doesn't creates GAPS between casual players and catasses that ultimately breaks the game when the groups progressively outdistance each other. Instead it helps them to play *together*. The catasses will help the casual players to get involved and understand the game and the casual players will help the catasses to gain access to what they want.

  • This is a model that works on the long term (because it provides always incentives to unblock *new* gameplay and not just more powerful version of "the same").
  • It is always accessible for both the catasses and the casual players and throughout the whole life span of the game.
  • It adds dynamism to the battlefield by giving the players different roles and purposes.
  • It finally brings together catasses and casual players. Producing an heathly community that doesn't shatter in pieces, progressively damaging the accessibility for new players as they join.

-- UPDATED after the comment

To address even more the core concept:

Catassing a system is about progressing through it in order to play along with your friends. In other games you are forced to catass or you are excluded from the game. This because you have to keep up with your friends or you'll lag out and become an outcast.

That's what is wrong in the advancement systems we have in the games now. Not the advancement itself but the OBLIGATION TO KEEP UP AND MATCH THE RESULTS OF OTHER PLAYERS.

"Advancing" is always fun if it's kept accessible and if you aren't forced to maintain an exact pace set by someone else.

My system address this problem directly. New ranks do not make you more powerful but just give you access to different gameplay. A player can choose that a specific role is extremely fun and REFUSE to progress further because he has no interest in doing so. You can stop where you want for as long as you want. The system allows you do do this without punishing you.

The system never *forces* you to "keep up". You just go where you want to go. From a side you have an incentive because you can get bored after playing the same role for months. So you could have an interest to get access to something else (and this happens naturally as you play). From the other side this process is NEVER REQUIRED and always optional.

There will be no gaps between catasses and normal players. The catasses will fill naturally their role as leaders while other players will explore other possibilities. I believe not everyone plays to lead raids. I offer specific roles to those players that want such positions, I offer then a bunch of different roles for the players that are interested to play with other mechanics.

It's NEVER a race to the end, it's just a space of solutions and offers that you can explore as you like. All the roles you unblock are essential to the system and they are the OPPOSITE of a ladder you have to endlessly climb. There isn't a direct direction where you are pointed to. You are the one to decide where you are heading and why.

Thick as a brick

DeepT offered me more reasons to explain my points.

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So your solution for 'end game' is to add a little more 'end game' that has such a steep advancement curve that anyone who isn't a hard-core catasser has no hope of getting very far in?

The system I imagined is more complex but I have simplified it to just explain the essential. In its complete version it starts to work in a similar way to the talents in WoW.

You do not unblock just progressive ranks but completely different roles that you have to choose. Like a new PvP class system. So you build your own path through this advancement system.

The skills/spells aren't usable if you are alone. Firstly because you cannot fill a specific rank without being in a group and voted for it. Secondly because these skills are not supposed to affect the single character, in general.

You AREN'T catassing for your power because those skills and powers have basically no effect on your own power. So you cannot catass it and you aren't going to be excluded from the gameplay.

There is no requirement to "catass", that's the main goal of the system so it just demonstrates that you didn't read what I wrote. You can advance at *your own pace* and this will *never* affect your performance or viability in the battlefield. It doesn't prevent you to have fun or being invited in a group if you aren't at the appropriate level. ON THE CONTRARY, the lower ranks will be always considered PRECIOUS because without them noone will be able to get assigned at the higher ranks.

In the practice the more you play the more possibilities and "content" gets unlocked. If you play for a month you'll just have access to a basic level. But a basic level that is always REQUIRED in the game. The higher ranks aren't supposed to be directly "more fun". But just to offer new patterns and new types of interactions. As you move up you can use them.

Premis:You are at the 'end game', you have done it all. How do you keep people intrested.

Contradictory solution: Add a new system that gives players something to do.

Problem: If you add 'more' then you are not at the end game anymore, hence you are not solving the end game problem.

This system I suggested is *solely* about the advancement path. Because they are fun and because they are needed for retention. Without being able to build something the subscriptions are going to hurt and noone will ever produce such a game that shoots on its feet.

My goal is to retain the fun in the advancement but without damaging the fabric of the game. Instead using it to bring catass and casual *together* and progressively unblock different gameplay and more dynamism in the PvP.

This isn't "content". The topic of this thread isn't about the content at the endgame.

For example in DAoC there's the ranking system and the Realm Skills. And then there's the *content* in the form of RvR zones, conquerable keeps, sieges and so on.

What I'm discussing here it's NOT about the content but about the other aspect of the advancement.

What the *real* solition will look like: Enganging and Fun that does not include gaining more wealth or power. AKA there is no advancement of any sort, but people are *still* motivated to play.

Impress me, solve *that* problem.

No, because that would completely derail the thread.

I discussed the "content" of the PvP elsewhere and it's pointless to keep derailing the threads toward other directions as an excuse to invalidate what I write about different arguments.

If you want games without advancement of any sort, go play Unreal Tournament. Mmorpgs ARE about advancement, without it they aren't mmorpgs. If you think it's okay to remove from the game an important system like this one you are just removing one of the strongest qualities this genre offers.

Re: PvP endgame - Better models are possible, always

The whole problem is that its "different" and the catass hardcore players hate having any sort of control out of their hands... its why they are playing DAoC and WoW currently... the control is in their hands. Casual gamers are just their fodder.

Overall this is a good idea, but it is weak without filling in the *holes*... holes being that you need to name what each rank is responsible for in the gameplay. You can say this all day long, but if you give the grunts all the fire power and the commander only has command controls to direct that firepower... the catass hardcore gamer is going to have much more experience and knowledge of the system to suceed in any role.

The system would need to be fully developed in order for a fair opinion on it to be formed.

Re: PvP endgame - Better models are possible, always

the catass hardcore gamer is going to have much more experience and knowledge of the system to suceed in any role.

I don't see that as a problem. The problem is about the community closing itself and not accepting anymore anything from the outside. The game becomes inaccessible for new players.

There are many more goals beside that one but none of them seem in doubt because the system isn't described in all its detail. The goals are goals. They define how the system behaves. All the rest is strict balance and direct feedback from the game (which, obviously, I cannot have).

The original idea was to give depth to the large battles. Right now they are just about piling people and letting win who has the larger force. What I want to do is design some mechanics that aren't anymore involving just the group but the whole large-scale battle. This is what I think is missing.

The other goals and ideas are only a "form" of implementation. I'm not *fighting* against what the players do and how they organize. I'm, instead, offering them tools to support and give depth to those choices. That support and depth that is severely lacking in other games.

Some of the abilities I have in my mind (and another rough scheme was described here) are about "area of effect" like defence energy barriers and flags that can be dropped to boost skills at a range. In general these skills are designed so that they are appropriate to the role, so a commander will have skills that affect his squad and will be able to use them ON TOP of the skills he has available for his class (these are like realm abilities. Added abilities on top of your basic character). And, secondly, they are designed so that they bring "order" in a messy battle. Encouraging the players to organize in squads and sticking together as it happened in the actual medieval wars.

A defence force field would work only for those who are inside. This would help to organize both the space and the players. If everyone goes on his own as it always happen, they won't benefit from those skills and mechanics. But, since they are important, the players would slowly start to understand how to play and finally develop tactics and strategies even for these larger battles that right now are nothing else than messed up zergs. Like a huge "free for all".

Most players hate large battles because they are just a random mess. Instead I believe that large battles and sieges can be a lot of fun and could offer more interesting and involving gameplay. This is lacking today because the design never cared to give a structure to these battles. They just "happen" like if they were a side-effect.

What I'm doing is like coding a better looting system in a free for all game. I'm just shaping up a part of a game that, till today, has been completely ignored.

Re: PvP endgame - Better models are possible, always

This idea has already been implemented.

www.puzzlepirates.com

Come to Puzzle Pirates and see not just HOW this awesome idea works, but WHY it does.

And remember kids....

If you can imagine something, that means it probably exists in some form or another on the

Internet.

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